Contradictions in the bible

GojiJuiceGoodness 22 months ago

#1--Did either of the three men claim them to be Jesus' last words? I'd have to look this up, but I am not inclined to believe it as a contradiction--we just don't understand it.

#2--Geanologies are confusing & I admit I don't understand it completely, but it doesn't contradict itself.

#3--I know the incident you're talking about, but if you recall Moses didn't SEE God face to face. When Moses asked to see God, God placed Moses in a crag/dip in the rocks & told him he would see the back or hind parts of God. And, as you read that is all Moses saw. I don't have the reference right on the tip of my tongue, but it's in the Bible.

For #4, where does it say man was created before animals?!

#5--Adam did die. God said he could not live forever like God is living forever. And, Adam didn't necessarily have to die immediately, he just couldn't live forever. And he didn't.

#6--Read Genesis 7:1-10. It says that God commanded Noah to do many things, including going into the ark & that Noah obeyed. Then later it gives the specifics of what he took with him (his family) when he went into the ark. It never says he went into the ark twice.

#7--Can you provide the scripture? And yes, Abraham did have two sons & then he had one more & that makes 3.

#8--what's this??

#9--God said "Thou shalt not worship any graven images of anything that is in heaven above or under the earth below." Believe me, God wasn't worshiping graven images. And what images was He taking delight?

#10--what's the verse here?

#11--he wounded or knocked Goliath unconscious with the slingshot. He might have killed him with it. And then he sliced off his head with the sword--isn't a good idea to make sure your enemy is 100% dead? Sometimes when killing, you've got to do 2 things to make sure he's dead.

I agree with HOOWANTSTONO when he said, "Humans want to find contradiction so they invent it." If we think there are contradictions, that's because we're not understanding or reading the Bible. The Bible is perfect--we are the ones affected by sin & it's our imperfected minds & hearts that aren't understanding.

nightwork4 22 months ago

though i have read parts of the bible it was never a book that i could finish so to argue the bible quotes with someone is not something i can honestly do. your hub though is exactly what i've said thousands of times. the bible is a book, nothing more nothing less. if you want to believe in god so be it but telling people that the bible was written by gods word is not only foolish but it makes god look like a science fiction writer. awesome hub again miss.

tincobra 22 months ago

Not sure if anyone mentioned this because there are lots of comments. But I took it David took Goliath's sword and cut his head off with it. Many people can read things for what they want them to say, but to accuse the Bible of contradictions and also claim it has been altered by man is complete ignorance. Your talking about a period in time where many sins would cost you your life and where truth was held in highest regard. It's basically ignorant to say a person contridicted themselves in writing just a few sentences apart.

TinCobra 22 months ago

Went back and read the full context of the David Vs. Goliath, because the biggest mistake people make in presenting the Bible is that they take words out of it. Now it's called the Word of God for a reason, that's because from Genesis to Revelation is all one Word, though made up of individual words, so if you truely seek truth do not cherry pick scriptures (take out of context). If you go back and read 1 Samuel you'll find where Saul dressed David in his armor and sword, but after David walked around in it, he realized it wasn't natural for him and he took it off and picked up his staff and 3 stones. Even before David kills Goliath he tells him that he is going to kill him and cut of his head, so we see David's full intent right from the start. He hits Goliath with the stone, then runs up on him and takes Goliath's sword (remember david did not come with a sword, he was just a shepard boy) and as a salt in the wound gesture, David uses Golaith's own sword to cut off Goliath's head. You need to understand the times and culture that the author's were involved in to completely get a grasp on the entire Bible. The good news is though that although man is full of sin, Jesus came and paid the price for your sin so you may have eternal life, that is plain and clear.

I did find your comment about Pentecostal's very interesting, because I thought I was reading my own story. The first Church I ever attended was a Pentecost Church. After going there for quite some time I finally decided I wanted to speak in tongues. I spent what seemed like hours after church praying and praying with people huddled over me, to the point I just started crying for my grandmother. I never spoke in tongues and still don't to this day. That experience and that church almost ruined me, because I felt I was unwanted by God, because the Pentecostal's taught me that speaking in tongues was affirmation of salvation and that you must speak in tongues to be saved. But thankfully God got a hold of me again many years down the road. Two years after my father's murder I felt God tugging on my heart again, so I gave my life to Christ and I made myself a promise that I would read the Bible for myself and not let somebody behind a pulpit tell me what it says. I also prayed that if there is one thing God blesses me with, let it be wisdom. So with God's word and His wisdom to help me understand it I found where Paul talks about the gifts of the spirit. He plainly and clearly states that speaking in tongues is a gift of the spirit, not affirmation of salvation and that not all people will have every gift, he even goes on to say what good is speaking in tongues if people don't understand what your saying. Originally from my take on the Bible, speaking in tongues was a way for Jesus's disciples and followers to preach the Good News in other people's language, and not all of the believer's in Christ obtained this gift. I hope you don't give up on God, because the fact is, if there is a god, that the most important decision in your entire existance is to find out and to seek with an open heart.

TinCobra 22 months ago

Pink: "I have seen the nastiest comments come out of christians mouths. They are always the first ones to get nasty and lash out. They actually pushed me further away from belief than i was, and now im a total non believer."

Come on now pink, it's hard for me to believe that Christians are "always" the first to get ugly. I do however believe that they can get very distasteful and attack others, but don't forget to mentions their oposition does the same. I hope you don't let your emotions or the behavior of others become your basis of truth, everywhere you'll find people who discourage rather than encourage.

Pink: "I was never one to sit here and make someone question their beliefs, but when you come across someone who wont quit until they've prayed the sinners prayer with you, you start to get more than pissed"

Again, please don't let people sculpt you, because trust me, on this Earth, finding good people is like finding a needle in a haystack, and by good I don't mean just decent. If it didn't disgust me so much, I might find it humorous that some Christians play the god of God, for instance God gave people free will to choose Him or reject Him, He doesn't want people who are forced to love and worship Him and yet many Christians will try to force people to believe in God, like somehow they have something greater than God, "God you couldn't make them believe, but "I" can" ok I have to lol at that, the arrogance of man....

Pink: "But i prefer to base my utter beliefs on something true, and unless you can prove something is true to me, than you can forget me believeing in it."

Why would you need to believe in something thats proven true? That's like saying I believe the sun came up this morning and yet you can clearly see it shining. We all believe in things that aren't proven, we just decide which we need more proof for in order to believe, make sure it's for the right reason. If we believe in the God of the Bible, then we should also believe that He has an enemy (satan). I believe that satan is behind all of our doubts and questioning, but that's just my opinion. I do know however when I decided to give my life to Christ, I was on this extreme high of inspiration, I was reading the Bible (I hate reading) and my life was changing, I was preaching the good news.... then all of a sudden in my arrogance I started to hit the forums, cuz I had something no other person had and I'm gonna be able to successfully convert people (see I was one of those you can't but "I" can people). I was hit with a hard right hook that I was not ready for at all. I had come to answer the great questions, but left with questions of my own, but I didn't stop there, I searched for the answers and pondered upon them for lengths. That was a long couple years where I would fall in and out of doubt, but that experience made me stronger and helped me to see my pride is what was leading me, not bringing God glory. I am more equipped now and my defense is strong, but that was truly a moment that my life could have forked off to who knows what.

Jeff: "I've never been one of the folks who believes that the Bible is the literal truth"

"Believe or don't. It's all one to me. I wish more of us would relax about it."

"You say the Bible is full of contradictions? It totally is! (I don't understand how anyone who claims to /study/ the Bible could refuse to even acknowledge that.)"

Hmmm, believe or don't? Do you mean believe in the Bible or don't, or do you mean believe what you want about the Bible? You say your a believer, but a believer of what? If you take out of the Bible, only what is easy for you to swallow but leave the rest, then how do you know you ate the right part? Sounds kinda like you see the bible as a buffet and you pick and choose what you feel like eating. I have more respect for people like Pink who claim it's all junk rather than a person who can rummage through there and find atleast something they can believe in. That is a grave mistake so say well you can believe this, but you can't believe that, this is a book written thousands of years ago, there is no way to make sure what you believe is the truth and to discredit what you don't believe. Dig the hole, plant the seed, water it, then harvest.... you take only what you want out of that statement and you'll go hungry bud.

Hoo: "The earths environment changed and people stopped living as long as then."

Jeff (replying to hoo): "Really? I mean, /really/?"

Jeff (other comments): "Yeah, either the guys who wrote Genesis forgot to carry the one or something, or biology used to work a lot differently than it does now."

"Either we have to accept that the events in the Bible are allegorical and not literally true, or we have to imagine a world (this world, but in the past) where the current laws of science did not always work, and miracles were routine. Maybe the laws of science hadn't been finalized?"

Sorry bro I had to lol at this... You belittle Hoo when he suggested that the Earth's environment changed, which caused people not to live as long, but then you yourself suggest that biology and scientific laws may have been different then. Do you not see that as the environment changing? I would suggest that Hoo is correct in stating the environment changed, but I would be more specific into saying that disease, sin, bad habits (over eating, taking in things that feel good but are not good) continuation of making copy after copy after copy and etc. are the environmental changes that reduced life quality and length.

Now Jeff this is just an observation, but it seems you may have let pink sway you by her charming good looks. She is an atractive woman, but be careful for many men, even in the Bible, have fallen due to thier affection for others. Wise up or Pink's next hub will be about the contradictions of Jeff. :P (only kiding)

cheaptrick: "Jesus was a Jew,he was born a Jew,he lived as a Jew,he died a Jew, and he was resurrected a Jew....To bad he couldn't have waited thirty more years...He could have been a Christian!"

Not sure if this is a joke or not, but regardless I laughed at the end anyway at the complete ignorance. So it worked for you anyhow cheap. Not sure what you mean by Jew, but my understanding is that a Jew is a race of people(african, mexican, arabian etc), so obviously if Jesus was born a Jew he would of remained a Jew his entire life, therefor no need for a timeline of events in which Jesus' Jewishness is confirmed. Judaism is a beleif of some Jews, but there are also Christian Jews. So don't mix religion with race.

Cheaptrick: "Go to any Synagogue and see if you can find a Rabbi quoting the new testament."

Having a hard time folling you here cheap, wondering if you conjured up these statements from your own mind or retreived some talking points from another person. If you "READ" the Bible you'll find Jesus (leader of Christianity) was called rabbi (hebrew for teacher)and He was also found in synagogues reading scripture (Torah) and teaching the truth (New Testament). Why did he do this? Because he was the confirmation of the Torah, in fact Jesus said that God's Word (Torah) will exist even after heaven and Earch have passed away. Christians should not believe that Christ was against the Old Testament, in fact he was the completion of it. The pharisees of those days were the ones Jesus was opposing, because they had twisted the Torah and were using it for personal advancement, opression and gain. That is why the pharisees rejected Jesus. Christianity and Judaism are in agreement on a lot of issues, the one that seperates them is that Christain's believe Jesus was the Messiah, where as people of Judaism are still awaiting thier Messiah. The Jews were looking for a Messiah to save them from the Roman opression and instead Jesus shows up on the scene preaching meekness and rendering unto Ceaser that which is his, so you can imagine the uproar this caused. It would be like if President Obama started to correct the black community on thier faults instead of standing with them, oh oops he kinda did and Jesse Jackson m

TinCobra 22 months ago

Pink: "are you saying that sins were held accountable more so then than they are now? Because that in itself is an ignorant statement. Yes, in about 2-3 sentances a person can totally contradict themselves. "im not a racist or anything but i dont trust a hindu man as far as i can throw them."

Sorry Pink, that was my bad, a lazy attempt to make my point, but as you might see from my previous comment, I'm in the novel writing mood now lol. In the comment your reffering to I said that it is ignorant to say a person contradicted themselves a few sentences apart in writing. My point is that when we write we have time to think about what were saying, whereas like the point you made, which actually affirmed my satement, people tend to let things slip off thier tongue that they didn't thoroughly think through. It is likely to contradict yourself in writing if your mind leaves the current thinking process, then later returns but while possible I would think it's highly unprobable that it would occur with so little seperation as in the example of a few sentences apart. I know for me I usually read what I write over and over before I sent it to the printer so to speak. My other point, which again I lazyily failed to clarify was that if the Bible had been altered, I would assume they could of easily picked out the "so-called" contradictions. I think alot of times that people assume that with all the technology in these times, that we're surperior and much smarter than generations of the past, but that isn't accurate at all. People created structures back then, accomplished projects of mass labor, painted pictures, etc. that baffle the "so-called" experts of today. The generation we live in only tries to find the cheapest, fastest and most effecient way to do things, because our lives have become so chaotically busy. My point here is that it's hard for me to believe, that in a time where they had no rush rush to catch the bus or to catch up with the latest celebs, that the author wouldn't have had time to make sure his writing was accurate and errorless.

As far as sins being held more accountable then, than now, I would suggest in most cases yes. Look around the U.S. and you'll see that we don't even hold the same idea of sin as the Old Testament. Whether it's the issue of homosexuality, divorce, abortion, fornication, lieing, etc, we often make some excuse for it's justification. I do not wish to argue these issues because that is a personal beleif for each individual. But from the basis of the Old Testament, there are lots of sin it recognizes that the culture of today sluffs off. The most important aspect of this point is that the degree of punishment for sin was far greater in those times. Death, Death and more Death was the punishment in alot of cases, none of this throw you in prison and we'll send room service in soon business. A decent example of what I'm reffering to is some Arab Nations that still stone women for adultery, or for instance the hanging of Saddaam Hussein, do you think any of our leaders would ever be executed for any crimes? I don't believe so for an instance, because we can't even prosecute our celebrities, let alone a leader. Without further rambling, in these days we might think twice before we break the law, in those days you thought for two days before you broke the law, for the punishment was severe. I hope I clarified myself and didn't stunned you with more mind numbing confusion lol. Hold me accountable if I did.

-Herb Gruenwald III

TinCobra 22 months ago

TinCobra: "I know for me I usually read what I write over and over before I sent it to the printer so to speak."

Rofl, I'm such a goober, even in the very statement above I used sent instead of send. I've also came to the conclusion that I should have looked it over once more before hitting the post button, seeing that my post have quite a few mispelled words and grammer errors.... open mouth insert foot... Nevertheless I hope people will judge my comments based of the contents or the meat of it, rather than spelling and grammer, I know it's hard to believe but even I'm not perfect. If I pursue writing any further though, those are definately qualities I need to work on.

TinCobra 22 months ago

Sleep well pink. I havn't been sleeping well either for the past couple months, I lay awake for hours feeling tired but my mind won't enter the sleep stage. I'll be up to 2-3 am when I have to get up for work at 6 30 am. I was just curious if the teddy bear was your remedy lol cuz at this point I will give it a shot.

On the issue of the Christian being the aggresor, I will compromise with you and humbly say that I've found myself in that position many times. Not sure if it's more common with Christians on forums because generally there are more Christians in this country or if its just were stubborn, I assume its a little of both. I think it also has to do with a person's personal stance on an issue. Democrats and Republicans are always at each other's throats but you generally don't hear much from independents, because they tend to be in the middle. That's kinda the way I see you, you don't seem like an athiest but more of an agnostic, that really hasn't hammered it all out yet. Which could cause you to be more passive. Water will rush to the least resistant area, so in that sense maybe people see an open area and attempt to flood it with thier beliefs.

I will say for what it's worth, that I have found myself at times being the aggressor, but it's because of the fact I truly believe that some people are headed for disaster and I desperately want to help them. I can only speak for myself though and not the intentions of other Christians, in fact I prefer the term Christ Follower because Christian has alot of baggage that comes with it, due to the faults and errors of many who claim the title.

I have a good friend that I used to debate and discuss issues of religion, creation etc. He was an athiest and so our debates normally started out civil but quickly turned to battles. He made me stronger, he forced me to answer questions that I was trying to avoid and I can only hope I did the same for him. We had numerous debates, so many I can't even count, not sure how we didn't both wind up fired, because we would often be out in the open with an audience of fellow employees being entertained by our quarreling. Seemed atleast for me that something was helping us stay hidden even though we were in the open, because with all the trafic of management, rarely did we encounter one during our talks.

I will admit I felt defeated and discouraged, not because I felt his beleif trumped mine, but because my attempts to persuade him had seemed to fall short. I don't remember exactly what it was, but for some reason on my way home from work one day I was thinking alot about him and I had this revelation, that I can't give up on him nor can I convince him with my logic, but I can love him, which is really the true theme of Christ. Unfortunately that revelation may have come too late, because it wasn't long after that, that he moved on to a differnt place of employment, in a different part of the country. But I will never forget him, he's a friend on facebook so I still hold hope that one day I'll get the chance to be a friend who ommits unconditional love.

I have had a few succesful missions so to speak, where I have helped people see things in a different light. I can only hope those seeds are watered throughout life and that a mature plant grows, but I myself have much maturing to do as well. I will leave you with that for now Pink lol sorry it's so long, but life seems too short and unreliable to be too brief at times.

TinCobra 22 months ago

In my comment I was more reffering to the intellect of men, in the technology sense. Seems we see all the amazing technology of today's world and assume that man knows everything and yet they can't comprehend some of the creations of generations long ago. Good point in bringing up the witch killings... although I think it will turn to lean in my favor more than yours :P. Many people will bring up the witch killings and even the killings of other religious groups and they are right to do so. But I think most of us miss the point, Jesus never commanded the anhilation of religions, that was man who decided that. In fact Jesus said "I come for the sick, not for those who think thier healthy" in this statement He is referring to the pharisses who took religion to a whole new level of opression, they thought they were the healthy people, who knew all and who were flawless. Jesus is saying I came for people who know they have sinned, they are separated from God and want to make omends. Like the pharisees some Christians have maniuplated the religion and used it to fullfill thier own agendas. How bout this church out of Kansas that protest soldiers funerals with signs about God hating gays? They may not have physical blood on thier hands but thier definately guilty of causing more people grief an do more to tear apart the Kingdom of God than build it.

Let's say you became an editor and publisher of your own magazine. You hire some writers who you think are qualified and put them to work. Your on vacation and you leave the editorial position to another person. When you return to work the magazine is published and on the shelves allready and your name and magazine are making the breaking news headlines because your temporary editor didn't do the job you required of them and instead adopted thier own philosophy and realeased all sorts of racist, bigot, hateful, etc. articles through your magazine. Your wondering why in the world it's you picture all over cable and local news shows and not this temp editor, for they are the one who okay'd all this trash. Now how would you feel? knowing the world has a different view of..... Pink (since I don't know your name) than your true self. Oh and good luck trying to erase that view from thier minds.

So what's my point, Jesus is the leader of Christianity, and some people that have joined his cause have not upheld thier responsibility, so please place the blame where blame is due, blame man for thier errors. If Jesus had said go out and kill witches, Jews, Muslims, abortion doctors etc then I could understand the blame being placed on him.

Men claim to humble themselves under God, but then attempt to take upon His duties. They will tell man where they're going when they die (eternally), they will spout out all sorts of ignorance, Christians as well as all othere forms of belief. I can only speak for Christains and say that our god commands us to leave eternal judgment to Him and Him alone. One of my favorite verses is "before you try to remove the speck from your friends eye, first remove the log from your own so you can see better to help your friend"

As far as the wierd vibe, ya I know what your talking about. I think we do ourselves good to listen to our judgment, but we need further information to confirm it.

TinCobra 22 months ago

lol, I know what your talking about, have 3 children of my own. I'm off to bed myself, it was certianly nice to meet you and a person who doesn't run from the sight or sound of the word God. Had fun, and although Jesus has commanded us to forgive... I'm having a hard time forgiving you for keeping me in anticipation for your reply... I think I broke the refresh button.. lol. J/K about the whole non forgiving part, I assume you knew that but you never know about others who might read. I wish your boyfriend a safe trip and I hope the constant chasing your son around doesn't wear you out. Good night my friend.

TinCobra 22 months ago

The name TinCobra is a gamer tag of mine. I am.. or I guess rather was, a Mustang fanatic. One day at work, while in my teens, I was trying to fabricate a cool name. Being a Ford Mustang freak I had to have something to do with the car in my name. The thought behind it was ten second cobra, but wanted to make it mysterious so I decided to turn it into a metallic snake lol.

As for 3 kids.... hmmm not sure.. I kept calling in and complaining that everytime fed ex delivers I have another mouth to feed in 9 months, but they didn't seem to get the connection... nah I shouldn't say that lol

To be honest it was more of a neglegence thing, I always wanted to have kids, but I was never ready for the first one, then told myself no more, then came the second, told myself, for real this is it, and here we are with the third who is just over a year old. I didn't really do anything to prevent it, but now wouldn't do anything to change it.

To make a quick point about how we can know Jesus did and said the thing the Bible states. In reality we can't know for sure, God is in the business of faith, but I do believe logic can lend us a hand to make a resonable conjecture. The "Old Testament" prophesied about very specific events and qualities that would take place in and around the Messiah and Jesus fulfilled all those, except for one that many believe will be fulfilled when Christ returns. Now you have a choice we can continue to say that someone altered the story of Christ are the prophesies, or we can assume that they are true. Second way we can use logic, many of Jesus' disciples and followers were killed through stoning, crucifiction and quartering, in fact Peter asked to be crucified upside down, for he was not worthy to die like his master. If we assume that the disciples and followers of Christ witnessed the true life, death and ressurection of Jesus, then it would make sense that they believed so much that they would die horrible deaths for what they believe. But if they made up the story, or seen Jesus just die and that was it, no ressurection, I believe it would be safe to say that would of come clean rather than face the gruesome fate so many of them did. The deaths of the disciples and followers are not recorded in books of the Bible, rather other forms of writing, so it's kind of nice to see other writings validate the Bible, but yet again people can say well how do you know the writings aren't fabricated... Quick point, some Islamist Jihadist strap bombs to themselves and blow people up for the sake of what they believe, but the differnce between them and Jesus' followers is that Jihadist do it out of complete faith, but Jesus' followers would of had to say, "you know, we made this whole thing up, but I'm willing to die for it because just think 2000 years from now Tin and pink are gonna be talking about it on hubpages.com, we'll be famous"

Third and final point of the evening: If Jesus was fictional or just an ordinary guy, why did he inspire so many people to lead a revolution and a movement of such great magnitude? Jesus claimed he wanted the Good News to be preached unto the ends of the Earth, and if he were fake or just a crazy dude, He sure made one heck of a prediction.

As far as people being good enough for heaven, I believe that good is absolute. Sure in our culture it means something different, but for me something good means without bad. A shirt with just a small stain is no longer good, a glass of water with just a drop of sewage in it, is no longer good. So while man can be decent, we still have to have a solution to the little bad that we do and for me that's the blood of Jesus. I would think that God being absolute good could not dwell with anything less, hence why the Bible states Lucifer was cast out of heaven. I will not and refuse to say whether or not a person will go to heaven or not, that is up to God and He alone. Only He knows the heart of man.

sanjan 22 months ago

pink u r pretty :D

Jenna~Sea 22 months ago

Right on sister !!!! tell it how it is ! sorry i'm late to the party, I just got done reading all of that info you posted as well as other people's comment's . WOW some people react so strong, i think it might be because they are not ready to or able to handle change. frist of all i have to start by saying I belive that my faith is strong enough to question the bible!! yes indeed their are many contradictions ,my husband is reading the book front to back, he is about half way through and he to said the same things as you. I did a bit of research on the subject ; first off, I to heard this lilith story so i looked into it,what got from it was that there was atleast 3 eve's ??? the only thing in the bible that refers to this is;[1SAM.25:34;1KINGS14:10;21:21] also lilith is mentioned in Isa.34:14 though the KJV renders lilith as "screech owl" other biblical referances: Isaiah 34:14 "night hag" ( NIV translates it as "terror by night".more info on lilith go to (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith .as for the word "GOD" I could only date back to about the 11th century when the jewish bible was written the title was "the word of God" If you read the definition of the 'Word' "GOD" you will find no biblical connection??? a bit strange ?? one more thing i found is that the bible came from the greek version of the biblioses,dating back to the year 382, and it was written as a peace treaty between to ruler's one had his spiritual adviser write the book in order to keep peace between the people ?? that is as far as I've gotten on that subject, but in time I'll know more. so have blind faith if you must but i recommend that anyone looking for the truth better be ready to do a shit load of reading! I think it is pretty cool of pink unbrella to be brave enough to speak her mind,and as for you other people so quick to judge,remember when you found out santa or the tooth fariy was not real ?? it is okay to belive in something infact it is needed,but we don't need to throw stones at others in order to keep are own faith alive ...ps. pinkunbrella i would love to be a follower of yours ! will you be one of mine ?? i could use some pointers on how to create my hub's .

temiprice 22 months ago

Hi Pink Umbrella,

You sure know how to get a discussion going! I'd like to add my two cents, if I may.

First off, I'm coming from the perspective of a Christian who's pretty much in Jeff Berndt's camp. I believe the Bible is inspired by God, but not that it has to be taken literally, and certainly not that it contains no inconsistencies.

I just wanted to add a few thoughts on why Christians lash out so. Many feel incredibly threatened by the idea that the Bible might contain errors. To be honest, this isn't something I can usually ever talk about with most fellow Christians; they would lash out at me too.

I think there are two reasons for this. First, for some reason, the Bible has been elevated to god-like status in many churches. It's not something people say...but they treat it as such. Of course, no one prays to it or anything, but they still think of what it says as God's only way of speaking to them. They judge their own righteousness and that of others by how well they know, and beleive the Bible's words. It is a terrible irony, but for some people, the Bible seems in that respect to have become an idol.

You can see this in the way they will keep quoting the Bible long after you have told them that you don't believe it. They don't believe they need to develop reasoned arguments, but instead believe words from the Bible have power in and of themselves to convert you to their way of thinking.

I know many people who have become Christians as a result of reading the Bible and finding truth there. But truly, our faith is not dependent on any sacred text, our faith is in God.

The second reason Christians are so threatened is that once you question the truth of any portion of a sacred text, you have to question the whole thing. If the story about Jesus walking on water is wrong, then you have to admit the possibility that so was the story of the resurrection. And if the story of the resurrection is wrong, we, as Christian, are devoting our lives to a lie. In which case, we're screwed. So there is a lot at stake here.

It's just easier to believe the whole thing, than to try and examine every portion and decide if it is true. Again, no one ever talks about this...but I think they feel it strongly on a subconscious level because a BIG WALL jumps up whenever the Bible is questioned.

Anyway, thanks for the great hub. Sorry if you've been attacked. You seem like the kind of person who can empathize with others, which is why I wanted to explain a little. It's no excuse really. Any Christian who attacks unkindly, isn't doing what the Bible says or accurately representing God's heart.

Have a blessed day.

TinCobra 22 months ago

To Jenna and temiprice:

I wonder Jenna, do you scrutinize and inspect (study) the resources where you obtain your information from as critically as you do the Bible? Do you question the work of so called scholars or other peoples research as in depth as you seem to question the Bible? I would assume not, because then your whole life would be consumed with researching research that basically by the end of it you'll never find your answer, instead find insanity. The Bible takes faith to believe in while offering some intelectual facts that can keep our mind at ease. We observe the historical events in the Bible and we see that scholors and archeologist confirm the Bible's statements, so we then are led to believe that the other things said are safe to put our faith in. If you believe the Bible is the Word of God, then you can not study the Bible verse by verse, you must study it in whole from Genesis to Revelation, be careful in pulling out of context. You also shouldn't assume that people of this generation can completely comprehend an author's intent. Santa claus is a figure of our culture, but if thousands of years from now, someone were to obtain writings of today, they may come to the conclusion that we believed in Santa Claus, where as it's the spirit of a factual man that we keep alive thru a fictional character. So did the author's actualy believe in this lilith or were they just relating to thier audience in a way they would understand? Lilith, even if she were a fictional character, could resemble the the spirit of factual events, such as the slaughter of infants. But who really knows right? were suppose to use our judement, common sense and most of all, God sent wisdom when reading the Bible. In my opninon they understood lilith as a representation an idea, rather than an actual person, becuase the Bible continues to suggest that Adam and Eve were the first humans. God is a name, not a word, so don't dig too deep into that because many people have different names for God or thier own personal god. Yahweh is a common name of God in Judiasm, Allah (muslim,islam), God is even called the "I Am" in the Bible and other people have different names too, like brotheryochanan up there, refers to God as the voice.

As to you temperice, I will reiterate my previous point, if "you" choose to define what "you" can believe in the Bible and what "you" can't, then how can you be sure your right? If I were to write a story about my life in which I revealed contradictions in my story, what might a person call me? Let's be honest here, contradiction is the descriptive term, but the specific term is liar. If in one part I say I graduated from this high school, but then say I graduated from another high school, I would be a liar, not just a guy who has some contradictions. So on that sense if the Bible is a lie (full of contradictions) then how can it be held as any substance of truth. Sure some people say there is truth hidden in every lie, which I would aggree with but not 100%, but the problem is, how do you sift through the lies and truths of a story that was written so long ago?

It's impossible, so if a person were to continue down this street that "I" take out of the Bible what "I" can believe, then I think they'll find themselves at the destination of creating thier own religion. Now as for me, there are things in the Bible I don't completely understand, but I have yet to find any lies in the Bible. So I continue through my life and continue to grow in faith, and praying for wisdom, and some of those things I did not understand before, God has revealed to me and I assume He will continue to do so. But at the first sign of my ignorance, if I were to jump on Google and start pulling verse's out of context and researching what so-called scholars believe, then I do myself more harm than good. We have to look past our arrogance, that somehow when it comes to God or the Bible we have to know every little aspect and detail before we can put our faith in it as a whole, and yet we'll rush to spread gossip or believe it whether it's about family, friend, poloticians or celebrities, before we even get the facts.

As for the Bible being easier to believe as a whole rather than deciding each portion as truth, I would completely disagree. It would be like buying a swingset for a child without puting it together. Which is easier, giving it to the child in pieces or figuring out where each part goes and how it all connects? In your sense you give the child a unfished and possibly dangerous swing set, because you couldn't see any use for a certain part. Therefor it takes more work to read through the Bible and figure out the context of it as a whole and figure out where all the pieces fit, rather than pick out whats easy to chew and leave the rest.

royalblkrose 22 months ago

I can't answer all of your questions... pink umbrella... I hope to shed some light on a couple of issues...

first.. the gospels are written by four different people, hence you have FOUR different points of view and modes of speech (ever get a story from four of your friends?)

second, the genealogical question... the gospel of Matthew is for Joseph, the gospel of Luke is for Mary, according to prophesy, Jesus was to come from the Line of David, the old testament king... and the different genealogies prove out that prophesy from His earthly father's line, as well as His mother's. and about Goliath's head.... that was a trophy! proof the stone that killed him did the job and that Goliath just wasn't knocked out in a stupor! (heads were take as trophies back then...)

temiprice 22 months ago

To TinCobra:

You illustrate my point. I can't be sure I'm right if I have to discern what is true in the Bible and what is not. That is precisely why I said it is much easier to believe there are no errors in it. I'm not trying to start my own religion. I'm just trying to please God.

Let me be clear. I love the Bible. I believe it was inspired by God. I have been reading it cover to cover for over thirty years and am currently memorizing the gospel of Matthew. I would be DELIGHTED if I could believe it contained no errors.

If you can in your mind reconcile things like the story of the Gaderine demoniac - where in one account there is ONE demoniac and in another account there are TWO demoniacs then do so. If you can't, does that make the whole book a lie? You seem to imply it does. I don't agree.

The gospels have differing accounts of the same events. The fact that they differ does not test my faith in the events they describe. The same would be true if you found three people who witnessed the Kennedy assissination. But if you put a book together with several witness' accounts, and you told me that in order to be a true believer in the Kennedy assissination I had to believe EVERYTHING in the book even though one person said Jackie was wearing green and another said she was wearing purple. Well, I'd be stuck. You just put a stumbling block in front of my faith in the Kennedy assissination.

Can't you see that is exactly what you are doing here?

Pink - don't take this the wrong way, I'm a happily married heterosexual woman..But sanjan's right. You are pretty! And I love your witty comments even when I don't agree with your views.

TinCobra 22 months ago

I'm sorry temiprice, I don't mean to sound rude here, but trying to understand what your saying is more frusterating than completing an arubix cube.

In your first comment you said it is easier to believe the Bible as a whole, rather than examine every portion to see if its true and now you say it's easier to believe there are no errors in the Bible. Those are two different points, which now you claim are the same. I was under the impression in your first comment you were talking specificaly about what is true and what is a lie which by no means is an error, but more of an intenional deciet. Error is a very broad statement, grammer, spelling, punctuation, misplaced words etc. Now is believing the bible is errorless easy to say? Well that depends, has a person came to that conclusion based off facts or based of "well I prefer to say its errorless, rather than actually find out if it is" because if a person says the Bible is errorless, based off facts, that means they had to search the whole Bible to make sure thier statement was factual, but for a person to say yes the Bible has a or multiple errors, they only have to find what they believed to be an error in just one part of the Bible to make that statment. So again it would be more work to say the Bible is errorless, than to say it is in error.

Now as far as the demon possesed man, not sure why people use fancy words to describe things, when most normal people say Huh? Any how, Mark and Luke record the same exact story with very specific details that pertain to area and how they arrived and etc. And Matthew does the same thing, he get's the place right, how they arrived there, and even that it's a demon possesion, only difference is he mentions 2 people. This isn't that big of a deal, when you consider multiple people wrote about the same story, now had the same author said there was only one, then later he claimed two, that would be a contradiction. But seeing as it came from multiple authors, it's more of a point of perception than a contradiction. Again all 3 author's record the same very specific details, now why 2 only talked about the 1 demone possesed man and matthew wrote about both, we'll never know. This actually compliments the idea that the Bible was written from witnesses, and not conjured up in a room, because then they could just "copy and paste" thier stories. Come on we let ploiticians get away with saying they mispoke and yet we can't allow Mark and Luke to highlight the one man they thought was more important to the intent of thier gospel.

Even in the trail of my father's murder, stuff like this happened. People said that Kenny (accused murderer of my father) hit my dad in the back of the head when he was sitting on a bar stool, they even said they seen him walk to the back door and grab the board that was bracing it shut. But when the actual trial came, it went more like this; We heard a loud bang, which sounded like a gun going off, we turned to see what it was and we seen Herb (my dad) on the floor bleeding and kenny holding a board. This loose testament was enough to dismiss kenny and close the case. So you see people claimed Kenny struck my father in the head, but they based if of thier judgement, the court over rode thier judgement and claimed, well since you didn't actually see him do it, you can't assume he did. Not to mention that as things unfolded we found there were actually more witnesses that previously mentioned. One thing you have to remember is that the author's wrote about the events awhile after they happened, so it goes based of memory. We can debate meaningless words for lengths, but the main thing here is whether or not there were 1 or 2 demon possesed men, changes nothing on the account of Christ Birth, death and ressurection. So basically when we get down to it, were really battling over the fact of whether Adam had a belly button or not... Interesting to know, but doesn't do us any good.

Good job in your endevor to read the Bible over and over and over and over. I hope that one day me and you both can learn to live it out, rather than believe we are pleasing God by reading his word, rather than follwing it. I do understand you have to know what it says before you can follow it, but I believe that we fall under the same category as the author's of the new testament, they didnt read something over and over and over to understand Jesus, no instead they walked with him and spent time with him, we can't do that with the physical Christ but can sure do it with His Spirit that resides in us, believe it or not God revealed things to me before I read them for myself, the Bible was more of affirmation to me that what I thought was God telling me something, actually was.

temiprice 22 months ago

I'm sorry, Tin Cobra, if I'm not communicating my point well. Because I knew what I was trying to say, I didn't see how confusing it could be. I think the problem lies in my use of the phrase "It's easier to believe." When I've used that phrase above, I didn't mean that I thought what it was referencing is TRUE. Just that it is easier, less work, to believe in a Bible without errors.

Example: If I knew my weather man is always right I could dress in the morning with complete confidence. But I know the weatherman is sometimes wrong. So, I use him as a guide, but I also look out the window to see whether it's clouding over. That is a much more accurate method for planning my day, but it's also a lot more work.

Now that's a terrible example - because the Bible is way more reliable than a weather man, but I do see inconsistencies in it, whether due to human error, difference in perspective, I don't know.

Some people feel incredibly threatened by that view. They need to believe that every word in the Bible is absolutely true.

I agree that the inconsistencies actually support the overall truth that these are real events people witnessed and related. And I agree with everything in your last paragragh. I, too, knew God before reading the Bible. And I, too, found that the Bible is the only holy book that my spirit accepts as the truth about God. I have read some of the "lost books of the bible" that mention weird things like the three Eves. LOL. There was a lot written in the first thousand years after Jesus - I think the church did a good job of gathering what was inspired and leaving out the rest.

So, I hope that clarifies my thoughts a little bit. I was not trying to start an argument - just trying to explain why some people lash out the way they do. Sorry if I mucked it up.

TinCobra 22 months ago

Temi we'll just have agree to disagreee as they say, on this issue. For me I can't believe in something I think is inconsistent and on the other hand I don't just say well I'm gonna just believe there are no questions to be brought up in the Bible, No! instead I seek the answer to the questions in the best way I can, I seek truth, I ponder for lengths about the intent, so for me it isn't easy to say the Bible is errorless, for it took a long time and alot of searching before I came to that conclusion.

I'm glad you brought up the weather man issue. This is the very reason I can't trust inconsistency, I do not put my faith in men who can look at the same radar and come up with different conclusions. These people are experts right? They all went to colledge and learned the same information, and yet when they look at something they each have a different view of what they see. So it isn't the information that's flawed it's the man and how they interpret it. I loved science growing up and always dreamed to become a scientist but in the field of science there are too many arrogant goons who thing that somehow they can glance through time, whether in the past or present, and tell you how things were or will be, and yet another scientist can look at the same bit of information and come to a different conclusion. The information isn't the issue but the interpreter is. Scientist studies are based of consistent principles but yet some believe in an inconsistent philosophy. Example: "well if this happens so many times over and over then it must be, but if later on down the road we find out that in fact our first conclusion was in error, then we'll change it to reflect our current conclusion, then if even later on down the road we find our second conclusion was in error, then we'll change it" and so on and so on, it never ends. While it is smart to change your view of something once you find out more information, it is not smart to put your faith in something that is so inconsistent. For instance, people used to think the Earth was flat, we now indeed know its round, so we would be dumb to continue to believe its flat. So is Science something to put your faith in? I would say NO because it always changes. Let's take microscopic organism's for example, scientist never even knew these things existed because it didnt follow their method of study (sight,see,taste,feel,hear), but in the late 1600's to early 1700's (if I'm remembering the dates correctly) the birth of the microscope helped man to see things that they couldn't with thier own eyes. So they had to go back and change everything they knew and believed to reflect thier new found information. The theory of evolution is always changing, but what if one day science say's you know what we found some information that tell's us evolution is impossible, what if one day someone develops a instrument that allows us to see God with our own eyes what then? So we can't put or faith in inconsistency, but yet so many people do. Life for instance, it is inconsistent, "well I'll get to know God, if there is one, later on in life" but then that life is taken from us and we never got that chance. People will plan out thier lives in great detail and yet why? For life is inconsistent, it is here one day then gone another, instead put your faith in something that doesn't change; scripture. Interpretations might change, but the words never do, that's why I warn about the man behind the pulpit.. can you trust his/her intent? I'm by no means Anti-Church, I just got home from Church actually, but I know there are alot of Churchs' sending the wrong message out into the world.

How can we say the Bible is inconsistent then say it's something to put our faith in? Going back to the demon posession, if we say the author's contradict each other, then were implying someone is lying or doesn't know what thier talking about. So then what about stories that only one author wrote about? How can we assume that's factual, because here we have a book that we allready accused of being in contradiction? What if Jesus actually said I am a way, I am a truth, I am a life? A little error such as replacing "a" with "the" changes the entire meaning. So you open a whole big can of worms assumng that the Bible is in error. How can we be sure that Jesus said He is "the" and not "a" because we look at the entire picture and see where Jesus constantly shows us that He is God.

So inconsistent (contradicted) message (Bible) or inconsistent men/women, who read something in an inconsistent time with an inconsistent view of the world than with the content they read? Take a look at just this comment section. I'm a person that rambles on and rambles on, because something in me says that I can't leave anything out, I got to hit every detail, whether it matters or not, whether it's important to my message or not, and even still I leave things out. But yet some people, they get straight to the point, they keep it nice and short, and leave little distraction from thier main point. Wow you mean people can actually have the same information, but deliver it thier own way and still be acurate? Yes assuming the information is accurate. So is it that Mark and Luke were saying there was only 1 man, or was that one man the main importance to the message they were trying to send? Maybe it's matthew that my writing style tends to follow, and he had to make sure he was very detailed in his account, for he even mentioned the storm they faced on the ride over to the area where the demon possesed man was. So if we take that in account, how many demon possesed men were there? Atleast 2 because that is the information the witnesses gave to us, they may have told the story thier own way, but that doesn't change the truth of it. See even I have dragged this out, gotten side tracked and not sure I've even hit some of my original points, thoughts and emotions. Here is something we can agree on, that we are united as brother's and sister's in Christ, and I hope my pride to stress my point doesn't cause you to stumble my dear sister. I'm passionate abut God and His word, but I wish I was more actively involved, but that's the weight of this flesh. For it's always in contradiction to my soul, it's desires are inconsistent with my soul and even the flesh and soul have inconsistent destinations.

TinCobra 22 months ago

Btw I agree pink she seems sweet, but whether or not she came to argue.... I would assume if you don't want to make a wish you keep your two cents in your pocket :P

Argue isn't a bad thing though, can be, if we allow it to. I think I shall take your advice though and let it go.... well.. I can't make any promises lol sorry my ego at times is uncontrolable, please forgive me guys.

temiprice 22 months ago

TinCobra - It's obvious we share the same Master and I appreciate your ability to make your points in what is very clearly a spirit of love. I especially like your comments about science and wish you were there to get my back in some very heated discussions in the comments section of some evolution hubs. LOL.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this. I will say that many, many people I love and respect share your views. So, it is entirely possible I am wrong in this. But I can't pretend to believe something I don't.

I think you can see a big part of my point,though, that to someone outside the faith, who does not already believe in the authority of scripture - someone like Pink - that things like this appear to be contradictions. And to attack her for intellectual honesty is not something God would find pleasing.

You, obviously, have not done that. I hope my comments did not suggest that I thought otherwise.

P.S. - Having read through the comments, I have a suggestion for sleep problems. Memorize scripture. Pink, this might work with poetry or something else as well. I don't know. Anyway, TinCobra, since you love the Bible, you can memorize a section. I'd suggest starting with something like Matthew 5, then start repeating it to yourself as you fall asleep. If you can't fall asleep, you are still accomplishing something profitable. But you might be surprised how quickly you drop off once you start doing this.

TinCobra 22 months ago

Yes Pink, a person should never force themselves to believe anything, that kinda defeats the purpose, on the other hand we shouldn't force ourselves not to believe in something. Sometimes it's harder to believe in things for certain people. Like Thomas who doubted Jesus' ressurectoin, until he seen the wounds and Jesus face to face, in which Jesus replied blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed. Basiclly what Jesus is saying here is if you need so much proof, evidence or information to believe, then really it's not faith. Instead of relying on God and putting our trust in Him when we're lost, or when our vision is impared by the fog or obstacles, we instead put trust in ourselves and our own wisdom.

Yes again pink, geez kinda hard to say your right.... j/k. If our standard is the fact that we are broken (sinful) and have no way to fix our brokeness (sinfulness), and we rely on Jesus' sacrifice for our redemption, then yes we both shall have eternal life.

I've enjoyed talking with you guys as well. I love discussions, because usually we all walk away learning a little something about one another. I will try the memorization technique temi, I'll keep you updated. Though It seems my problem is my mind won't focus, I sometimes stare at one spot for a long time, which used to work, but I find soon as my eyes grow heavy my mind starts generating thoughts. I might have to pick a scripture w/o any real content or meat, like maybe "Jesus wept" lol otherwise while I'm repeating it over and over I may start overanalyzing it.

Temi I used to debate evolutionist's in forums. It's tough to do, because they normally throw out a bunch of big words and mumbo jumbo to try and make it an intellectual debate, so they can reign superior. When really evolutionism and creationism both require faith to believe in. The difference for them is "men" wrote the Bible, but "scientists" wrote all the stuff they believe. LOL I still crack up that..... maybe one day science will learn that scientists are men. We should of learned by now that no matter what "title" a man carries that they still may have thier own agenda. For instance when they fabricated the skull to make it resemble a missing link between man and apes and recently we've seen scientists altering data to help promote thier theory of global warming. When men carry so much pride they will do just about anything to prop it up, that's something we should always be thinking of, whether it's the guy who goes door to door handing out pamplets or the guy who went to some University for decades. Jesus Himself was tempted by satan, so there is no man who can escape his attempts of trickery, whether it's tricking people into drinking poisoned kool-aid or putting faith in the idea of a world created by a chaotic event (big bang) that then developed through chaotic and unreliable circumstances (evolution) and yet when we look at the world, even in space, we see order, we see a cycle, not chaos. Everything has an unique job in nature, and yes sometimes in nature do chaotic things happen, ofcourse. But the most chaotic thing that happened to Earth was man.

Again didn't intend to say all this... just start typing and don't know when to stop. Love ya guys, it's been enjoyable.

temiprice 22 months ago

Thanks, Guys. It's been a pleasure. Not often I meet people who can share ideas about deeply held beliefs openly and without rancor.

SirGanz 22 months ago

Faith is a personal a personal relationship with God,and there is no need to find contradictions in Holy Books. If one finds it a mistake while the other finds it to be inspiring, then there is no need to quarrel all are right. Acceptance is the only way to understanding and peace.

AKA Winston 22 months ago

Hey, Pink,

Well written hub, but you only touch on the problems with the Bible. Many more pronounced problems occur, in combinations with the similarity in stories with other ancient mystic Gods like Mithra who has an incredible similarity to the story of Jesus.

But here are some other real dandy-doos just from the Bible. Did you know that in the earliest full version of the Gospel of Mark that it ended with 15:8? Yes, the entire part after that was added later, most likely in the 2nd century in order to have Mark keep up with the changing belief structure of the Church. Ezekiel prophecied that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy the city of Tyre, yet after 13 years of attacking, he gave up without a victory. In Mark, the empty grave of Jesus has a young man in front. In Matthew it is two men in blinding clothing. In John, it is two angels.

There were also competing scriptures written along with those chosen for the Bible. All of the books of the New Testament were written in Greek, although the language of the disciples was Aramic, and the disciples were illiterates, anyway.

I urge you to keep researching - Try looking up Jesus, Interrupted, to find more historical information on the Bible and the way it has been purposefully altered over time - and the reasons for those changes.

AKA Winston 22 months ago

Pink,

You did the right thing blowing off Judah's Daughter. If you encourage them, they have a tendency to breed.

AKA Winston 22 months ago

Pink,

My comment concerning Judah's Daughter had nothing to do with your hub. I know of her from my own hubs and was just making a wiseguy crack. She seems a nice enough person, but then so did Jim Jones.

Truth is, though, when she says things back like, "Thanks AKA. God bless you, too!" I have the feeling she is really thinking about Proverbs and the admonission to be nice to your enemies as you are heaping coal fire on their heads when you do.

I liked a lot what you thought about consequences for actions, as that is the basis of my own personal understanding of this world. We are all equally human, and thus require no forgiveness for that, but there are consequences for all our actions, good and bad. Morality is a learned behavior from having positive feedback from certain classes of actions - no magic there.

I don't like to toot my horn on others' comments, but before you write a similar hub you may want to look at mine: Oracles of Oops! - Prophecies that Fizzled.

Nice talking to you. Ciao.

TinCobra 22 months ago

AKA- I still find it amazing that people will put so much faith in things that they claim denounce the Bible. So easily you'll accpet anything you hear or read that goes along with your views. I wonder did you dig into the history of the people you get your information from? Did you inspect thier claims as closely as you did that of the Bible? How can you so easily accept their research and testimony? Do you think Christian's are stupid? There are many beleivers who are great scholars, well educated and even many like C.S. Lewis who was formally an athiest, but yet somehow they just looked past all the flaws because they wanted to believe in something so bad?

For most of us, we followed what Jesus said and when the supernatural change He spoke of came to our life, that was our validation. We as well have to look at information such as you have given and some of it is meaningless, some at first glance has credibilty, but what it really all comes down to is which side do you put your faith in? For you it seems you prefer to believe people who were against Christ, rather than the people who walked with Him. It's no mystery that Jesus walked the earth, in the time period the Bible states. For even other historical writings make brief mention of this man that was causing a disturbance with miracles and such. Here's a little experimet for you. Write your own book about a homeless man, who performed miracles, who stood against just about everything the modern religions preach, who was then executed, then ressurected. Get back with me and let me know how many people you convince and who knows maybe one day it will sweep the earth and change as many lives as Jesus' story.

People claim that they form thier own opinion, but really only adopt the opinion of others. Be careful of putting so much faith in men who attempt to look back in the past and deciefer its meaning, for you don't know their heart, their intent could not be to find truth, but to destroy it. Was it Columbus or the Chinese who first discovered North America? Did the Holocaust actually happen or not? Even Iran's President claims it was a hoax and that was just decades ago that it happened, and yet he and others deny it. How about the twin towers, how many people have a different view of what actually happened? Terrorist attack or inside job? Were the planes enough to cause the buildings to crumble or was there set explosives that caused them to come crashing down? and yet this was just 9 years ago, but 10, 20 30 years from now, people will believe one or the other. Some will say look here is information that says the government had something to do with it, and others will say here is information that claims Jihadist were the cause. Was America the first to the moon or not? Just know that it's all "faith", whether you believe the Bible or you believe it's critics, we weren't there, we have no way of knowing for sure what actually took place, thus we're all just humans investing our faith in something we hope turns a profit for us.

TinCobra 22 months ago

Pink, I used profit for lack of a better term and to shorten my point without rambling on, as I do so well. lol You are correct in saying it does seem to state something else other than my intent, which is a good expample of how this whole thing got started. We sometimes jump to first impulse and react. If you look at all my comments and thier content, if you knew a little more about me, you might come to the conclusion that by profit I didn't mean the literal sense, to give only in hopes of getting more in return, but instead to put our trust into something that we hope in the end we find out is true. When I put my faith in God I'm not at all saying hey God I'm trusting in you, so now do everything for me. Instead I'm saying God I've rebelled against you, I've broken your laws, I've strayed from your path, but I believe that through your son you will save me from myself, any rewards or blessings I do not deserve, but if it's through your love that insists I have them, then so shall I take and lift up your name. I don't deserve what God is offering me, nor can I say 100% that there is a god and that if there is it's the God of the Bible, what I can say is here is my faith, I do believe with my heart that you are God, and I hope that one day I'll stand in your presense (profit I spoke of) like you have promised me.

Hell N0 22 months ago

But JD, what do you really think. Do you not in fact believe that pink umbella will go to your eternal hell? Don't you teach that those who do not accept your god with their own free will have an eternity of suffering awaiting them? Assuming that PU does not change her mind before her demise, isn't she headed for the same place as most of the world? No one's asking you to judge here. We just want you to be truthful. Your fake appology is nauseating.

Hell N0 22 months ago

That's the problem though. I realize that you can't possibly believe the scriptures on your own. The scriptures teach and I believe that God will decide when you learn these truths. JD, like all hellers, believes in some unscriptural and unscientific free will which asserts that it is up to the person to save their self by just believing. Not only that, she is ok with the notion that her god will torment the lost eternally. She's ok with that. She not only worships this monster, she teaches of it. And calls it a god of love. Let me just say, that I understand your non belief. Myself, I see too much truth in how the scriptures corroborate each other to call them an invention of man. And I don't think godless naturalism has a leg to stand on. But to me, one of the greatest miracles corroborating the scriptures is that the entire church system of the world are more than 90% wrong in how they interpret them. And this is prophesised in the scriptures themselves. It all has to do with God's timing in whether people understand the spiritual language of the scriptures.

TinCobra 22 months ago

LoL no hard feelings pink. I have broad shoulders and wasn't offended at all by your comment. It actually gave me an oppurtunity to go deeper into my comment. As for Hell NO, a god of love can not be with hate (man). A god of good can not be with evil (man) God does not delight in seeing people burn, instead He sent His son to die so that they don't have to face punishment. God created Hell for satan, so when we choose satan over God he allows us to follow our god to hell. Remember it is men who claim they are so good, but even Jesus said why do you call me good for there is none good but God. We will look past all our faults and see only what we want to see. You can't highlight only the good qualites in man but fail to recognize the destruction they cause. We make the choice to break the law, therefore the Judge doesn't send us to jail, but our own actions.

AKA Winston 22 months ago

Tin Cobra,

I'll address your points one-by-one.

(AKA- I still find it amazing that people will put so much faith in things that they claim denounce the Bible.)

That's well and good, but I don't see you refuting anything I said, and the information has been available to bible scholars for decades, in fact almost 3 centuries. This is no secret to those who study the historical bible.

(So easily you'll accpet anything you hear or read that goes along with your views.)

You mean like believing that when Tyre wasn't destroyed that was still a fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy?

(I wonder did you dig into the history of the people you get your information from?) Bart Erhman, Ph.D., UNC Charlotte, graduate of Moody's Bible college and Wheaton University. Raised as evangelical Christian.

(Did you inspect thier claims as closely as you did that of the Bible?)

Truthfully, no, as I do not read ancient Greek of Hebrew, so I had to depend on expert concensus.

(How can you so easily accept their research and testimony?)

Their research is open to inspection, and open to criticism and other views. But it is rational. Therefore, it makes a compelling case. I don't think any of them offer "testimony".

(Do you think Christian's are stupid?)

Not a bit. More like naive. I watched William Craig Lane debate Bart Ehrman and Lane is a fabulous debater and probably won the debate.

All that means is that Lane is better at debate than Ehrman. Ehrman's written arguments are much stronger and more rational.

Hell N0 22 months ago

King Cobra, your beliefs regarding hell are as stupid as the rest of orthodoxy. They are non scriptural and built on fear invented by men of old. So, god doesn't like to see people burn? he just has to deal with it because damnit, he couldn't control his creation? Nonsense. Your beliefs are based on mistranslation and misinterpretation. I have covered judgment in a few of my early hubs. My recent hubs are designed mostly to make fun of ridiculous heller churchology. But I answer your ridiculous assumptions involving the fate of mankind in several of my hubs. Judgment will not be a walk in the park for the lost. That includes for hellers.

No pink umbrella, I'm not offended. But a religious middle man does not go on the offense against the Christian church the way I do.

TinCobra 22 months ago

Aka thank you for answering the best you could. So again we each have our evidence and we each interpret it our way. Long as you know what you believe is based of faith I'm all good.

Hell No...... rofl bud rofl.... yes the Bible does say men all have sinned and fallen short.. So you want God to control what you do? Hmmm I'm not sure you can have love without free will. But hey put your faith in whatever you want, afterall I believe God gave us free will to choose what we want to believe and who we want to love. He doesn't want to force us to love him or follow his commands. I don't intend to prove anything to anyone, only to offer the opinions of my faith. So don't get all worked up, one day we'll all find the truth, well unless there is no god, then we just die without the satisfaction of knowing.

AKA Winston 22 months ago

(So again we each have our evidence and we each interpret it our way.)

TinCobra,

Well said. To me, you have nailed the definition of truth - that which we believe to be true. Truth is subjective. There is no absolute to it.

Evidence, proof, belief, logic, truth - all these concepts are mental, i.e., a priori, and as such are all subjective.

I never mind someone holding an opinion, as long as it is not shoved at me as some kind of absolute truth, which is an oxymoron: there is no such thing as an absolute opinion.

Hell N0 22 months ago

Let me help TC. By the way, who hardened Pharoh's heart?

http://hubpages.com/hub/Why-Free-will-is-Not-Only-

TinCobra 22 months ago

Hell No I believe Pharoh hardened his own heart bud, God may have influenced it by creating circumstanes or removing circumstances, but the Pharoh had the choice to let the Jews go or force them to stay. In the same way God infulences us by tugging on our heart to choose him and satan tugs on our flesh to infulence us to choose him.

TinCobra 22 months ago

As far as there being no absolute truth, you might be correct, but then the very statement itself would be not true.

Hell N0 22 months ago

No, the scriptures say God hardened his heart. There is not a single instance of freewill shown in the scriptures. And God's influence is what He used. Free will is the ability to make uncaused choices. Influence is a cause. It's christiandom that turned the ability to make choices into free will. Read my proof at the link.

TinCobra 22 months ago

Bud I hope I don't sound rude, but your arrogance is unbarable. I know what free will is, I don't need to read a hub to find out. I'm inteligent to know that when thoughts come into my head, whether good or bad, I have the ultimate choice. I know scripture says to tithe and I feel convivtion as I pass the bucket to the next person, what's that conviction, God's influence for He has written his Word on everymans heart, but yet I still have that choice to tithe or not. I unlike you take responsibility for my own actions. I'm not sure what your point is, are you trying to say that the God of the Bible is fake, but then also say He's guilty? Anyhow, from your first impression, breaking in on the scene spouting names and such, it's probably safe to say I won't be visiting the hub of Hell NO. You'll have some work to do, if you wish to sway me, but beware I aint no pup.

Hell N0 22 months ago

I think you are at the same level as the rest of Christiandom. And it's obvious that you don't know what free will is because you call it making "the ultimate choice". There is not a single choice that isn't caused. And since freewill is having an uncaused will, we cannot have such a power. Of course you won't check because your doctrinal upbringing is too precious to you. You can try and be your own god if you like but the King of Babylon made the same mistake. If you think that you "free willed" yourself into the condition you are in, you deny the scriptures that say otherwise.

Hell N0 22 months ago

By the way TC, we need your input with the new game that everybody's playing:

http://hubpages.com/hub/Its-Time-to-Play-Are-You-S

TinCobra 22 months ago

Jeff- I did not intend to say you were actualy gonna go hungry, my point was if we put our faith in a person who gives us advice about planting seeds when we have no clue, but then don't follow thier precise directions, we won't have any crops thus going hungry.

Jeff we all know the environment's changed, waters are where land used to be and vise versa. The more men affect the environment the more it changes. Cities have went up where there were only trees and plains. Not sure why you had to make it so complicated, has the envrionment changed in every aspect? Idk, I would be arrogant to assume I knew everything, but has it changed in alot of aspects? Ofcourse.

I'm stilll here :p We all know the answer to men living longer Jeff, it's called medicine. We catch diseases and we go see a doctor. Does that mean we're more holy? By no means, it actually means that in some cases we don't like to face consequences for our actions. Let me be clear before people jump down my throat (since I don't have a neck) Some people obtain disease, sickness or problems not from an indirect action, but some do. Like unprotected sex, whether homo or hetero, when we catch disease we go to the doctor to have it taken care of. We smoke cigs and catch cancer we go get treatment, etc. So just because we live longer doesn't mean we aren't still dieing from a fallen world, but we have found ways to counter certain consequences.

Knock Knock, yep It's Tin here. I wasn't suggesting your faith was based off a woman. It actually was a joke. But still my point was David let his lust for bathsheba sway his morals and values, thus endangering his relationship with God, does that mean his faith changed, no.

TinCobra 22 months ago

okay okay you got me Hell..... geez never thought I would give up this precious view of free will. Just one question for ya, who's will is it for you to comment on this forum? Or should I ask who is it that "caused" you to post here?

TinCobra 22 months ago

Pink have you looked at my comment, it was all for fun and humor.

Original comment:"Now Jeff this is just an observation, but it seems you may have let pink sway you by her charming good looks. She is an atractive woman, but be careful for many men, even in the Bible, have fallen due to thier affection for others. Wise up or Pink's next hub will be about the contradictions of Jeff. :P (only kiding) "

The reason I made the comment if I may be honest was because I found your face sweet and innocent, as well as atractive and often when we put a face to things it changes our feelings some. Example people will often have more sympathy for a puppy than a full grown dog, and no I'm not comparing you to a dog. So after seeing who I was talking to, It changed how I would respond to your hub. Is it wrong to allow looks to sway you in that way, yes ofcourse, I'm not here to claim I'm perfect, nor am I here to justify my faults. So I made a joke about Jeff.

I don't understand pink why you're reacting the way you are now. The other day you must have read that statement because you commented on me saying you were attractive. Maybe you found it flattering at the time, but since then I've put a picture to my face and my unattractivness has swayed those feelings. Just making an observation and I hope I don't get criticized for this comment as well, but if so, so be it.

Nonetheless Sorry Jeff of a poor joke and sorry pink if you have taken offense. Other than that I'm speachless and not sure what else to say...

AKA Winston 22 months ago

(There is not a single choice that isn't caused. And since freewill is having an uncaused will, we cannot have such a power.)

Hell No,

You must not have read Hume. This whole idea of fatalism has been debated since Aristotle, with fatalism losing the fight.

Hell N0 22 months ago

If you are able to cause all of your choices then you have a free will.

If you chose to be born at a certain time, at a certain place to certain parents,and it all happened then you have a free will.

If you chose to look the way you look, to have the IQ that you have, to have any and all of whatever gifts you posses, then you have a free will.

However, if the decisions you make are based on

1. Learned or inherited Intellect

2. Learned or inherited passions

3. Learned or inherited communications skills

4. Groomed or inherited looks

5. Learned or inherited athletic skills

You have only a "will". It is not free of cause however.

TinCobra 22 months ago

So basically what your saying is your will has been overtaken by this philosophy and thus you are here to help us believe that someone or something has control over our will?

TinCobra 22 months ago

Phewww I'm glad pink.

Hell N0 22 months ago

I'm not saying that we aren't held accountable for our choices. We make 1000s of choices per week. But our choices are based on our circumstances (cause). Free will violates the laws of cause and effect. Real science must admit this. And it does. Today free will is spoken of almost as a ufamism. But the doctrine was basically invented by religious organisations to get god off the hook for people choosing hell. Why do you think the Lucifer myth is so important to christiandom? Evil had to invent itself for their doctrines to work. But no, we do not and cannot have a free will.

TinCobra 22 months ago

LoL sorry pink I hit you with my self pity and insecurities. My judgment told me not to go there, but I did anyway. I was just caught by surprise that's all.

TinCobra 22 months ago

Hell I'm still waiting for my answer... who's making you post here?

Hell N0 22 months ago

Well, let's see. Through practically millions of little circumstances in my life I have been called by God to expose contradictions of christiandom. Along the way I found hubpages, and became a writer known as Hell NO. I came up with this title as a result of my hatred for the very worst and most evil doctrine ever invented by any pagan religion. I found that I like exposing that crap because so many are held in bondage by it. I found myself at the computer this evening reading a hub of an apparent agnostic who is critical of the bible and feels that there are contradictions. Upon reading what she had to say, I noticed one of my long time advarsaries Judah's Daughter telling Pink of the hell awaiting her, or something. Actually, I followed JDs link here because her nonsense intrigues me. Anyhow, one cause led to another cause and here I am telling you why free will is religious hocus pocus.

So in closing, God brought me here.

Hell N0 22 months ago

By the way, we're still waiting for your input:

http://hubpages.com/hub/Its-Time-to-Play-Are-You-S

TinCobra 22 months ago

all right.. thank you Hell. So since God has sent me too..... Nevermind something's telling me to just let it go. lol

church god 22 months ago

Yes TinCobra my child. You are one of my chosen hellers. I command you to go to Hell No's link provided and support my congregation. Then, you must join me as the time of hell fire is near.

TinCobra 22 months ago

I'm off to bed guys, I'll catch you all tomorrow. I caled into work today because I could not sleep very well last night, took some natural drug (over the counter, btw) that's suppose to promote sleep. Wish I had some of that magic free will so I could just snap my fingers and be in a cool place on a soft bed, sleeping well and dreaming of a world of peace. But since not I'll have to stick to the alternatice: 91 degrees in my trailer, sweat rolling down my body, lying on the love seat while hoping I'll eventually doze off.

AKA Winston 22 months ago

Hell No,

Unfortunately, you only read through the first chapters of determinism and stopped before the refutation.

Although I agree free will was introduced as an out for God, that poor excuse does not mean free will is religious in nature. Many religions drink wine in ceremonies - that doesn't make wine an invention of religion.

The cause/effect argument you believe in fails due to chance and the impossibility of 100% ruling out the improbable. Let's say I decide to hit my window with a hammer and break it (cause), but just a fraction of a second before my hammer hits the window a bullet fired from blocks away hits the window at an angle, ricocheting off, but causing the window to explode in a shower of glass. However, I didn't see it or hear it so I still think my decision and my blow with the hammer was the cause.

But even before the bullet struck, a miniscule asteroid traveling at 25K per second hit the window, and that really caused the window to shatter. I didn't see that either, and I still think my hammer did the trick.

See, to prove cause and effect determinism, you would always have to know the cause in order to utilize the modal property of "necessarily true" which is the same as saying "impossible not to".

The key issue is that a contingent proposition cannot adapt the properties of modal logic. When speaking of cause, the proposition is always contingent as cause cannot be proved 100%. So you are always stuck with classical logic of if P then not-Q, instead of the modal property you are trying to use fraudulently, which is if P then impossible not-Q.

When I say it is true that a car will be stolen by Billie tomorrow on M street, does that mean it must occur? No, obvioulsy not. The proposition is contingent upon future actions. Saying something will occur is not the same as saying it must occur.

That is the logical flaw of determinism.

AKA Winston 22 months ago

pink umbrella,

Fatalism by cause and effect is a logical argument. The flaw in the argument is as described, in using the modal logic property improperly.

Here is a description of the refutation of Plantiga's free will defense that also covers this flaw in determinism: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/raymond_bra

temiprice 22 months ago

Dang, Pink.

I'm gone for twenty-four hours and now we've moved on to free will vs. determinism? LOL And TinCobra accused me of using fancy words?! Has he read AKA's argument yet?

Gonna add my two cents, and it's probably worth about that. I think AKA's logic is sound. Though, to be honest, I don't think most people really base their beliefs on logic. They seldom change their position when a flaw is found in their reasoning. And maybe that's as it should be. Just because something can't be proven logically doesn't mean it's not true. As most of us know intuitively.

At least, those of us who do believe in truth.

Hell N0 22 months ago

Hey Winston, let's say that you actually knew what the term free will means or implies: You would not be inventing straw man arguments attempting to prove one thing but actually proving the other. How many times did you use the word cause in your weak attempt at scholarship? Cause is answered with effect. It matters not whether you know what the cause is. If my nose itches, I will scratch it. If I choose not to scratch it, I am going against my will. If I had a free will, my nose would not itch to begin with. I would be in control of the forces causing my desires. The misunderstanding and misapplication of the term free will does not weaken my argument that there is no such thing. There isn't and there never was. This concept has nothing to do with the existence or non existence of God. It has everything to do with logic of which despite your attempts, you are lacking. It doesn't matter how your straw man window broke. Something caused it. And it doesn't matter in this world why someone kills another. That person is still dead and the killer must be held accountable. But accountability has nothing to do with the false concept of free will.

Hell N0 22 months ago

Time for more strawman:

Let's say that a man is about to shoot another in the head. He forces the man to walk down a secluded street, points his revolver, begins to pull the trigger,. . . . . and then an astroid the size of Rozan rips right through the guy vaporizing him. So, what caused him to die? Well, I can think of two reasons. First, the murderer (yes, he is a murderer) forcing him to walk towards the path of an astroid, and second, the damn thing hitting him.

TinCobra 22 months ago

LoL pink actually when I was writing about my sleep situation, that popped into my head that it started to sound like it was leading somewhere else.

Temi, thank you for your comment, because after reading AKA's comment I needed something to bring my mind back to reality, I was so lost I might as well been reading Chinese symbols. One issue I have with science and scholars is they speak to average people in above average terms that they don't understand. So I'm lead to believe that sometimes they might do it to prove thier superior intelect, while making us assume they know what they're talking about, but really when you get down to the nitty gritty they're just rambling on in an attempt to lead people to thier philosphy by means of trickery.

Hell No- As much as I hate going to work, it's really the only place where I get into deep thought. Usually at home I'm watching TV, playing a game, etc. so my mind is usually occupied. I'm so used to what I do at work that my body seems to just follow the norm, while giving my mind an oppurtunity to think freely, without hearing "hunny" "daddy daddy". So I thought about how your view of the word free will is so skewed. What came to my mind is that your idea of free will would be more like magic. We just snap our fingers and become anyone we want to be, wherever we want to be, with whatever circumstances we want to be. That would be nice, but the only problem with that is it actually takes away free will not grants it. The free will (magic) you speak of is unlogical, let's say that just one person was granted this free will (magic) that you speak of. This person wants to be President of the U.S. so at a snap of his finger's or a click of his heels, whichever you prefer. he becomes President of the U.S. Well what about the other hundreds upon thousands of people who want to be president? You have just taken away thier free will to pursue that. Let's say you use your magic to win the lottery, you just took that free will away from millions of other people who all wish to win the lottery. I could go on and on, but I won't. Second point; what if everyone had this magic you speak of. Everyone wants to be President, not possible and if it was who would they govern? Everyone wants to be rich, who would they give thier money to? Everyone wants to run thier own business, who would they employ? Everyone want's to win the lottey, what would be the point? Remember this happened in Bruce Allmighty, Jim Carey (bruce) granted everyone's prayer and all the people who prayed to win the lottery won like a buck and some change, you think that was thier logic when they wanted to win the lotto?

So basically again we see where the wisdom of God reigns supreme over the finite mind of man. Give people a role in society and they choose whether to follow that role or not. Give people oppurtunity and they decide to take advantage of them or not. Equip people with gifts, talents etc and they choose to use them or not. Create possibility and people will pursue or decide it's not worth it. Create good trees and one bad one and give man the choice of which they choose. Give people love and they will love others or they will reject it (hate). Give people the option to pursue God or the option to pursue that which isn't God. Can I stop now???? This is the true logic of free will, to allow everyone to do as they pease actually takes away free will. And the magic you speak of combined with the arrogance of man is a deadly combination. Hitler ring a bell?

Hell N0 22 months ago

No TC, much like a neutered dog, you don't get it. Free will is actually a physical impossibility (so are free choices pink). And I'll use your president thing. I'd bet that there are not even 100s of thousands of people who'd want to be president. I wouldn't. But if I had a free will, I could make myself want to be president. I don't have free will. Therefore, I . . .don't. . . .want to be president. Now let's apply this to church logic. I know several people who have no interest in God or even learning about God. If they had a free will, they could make themselves want to. They do not. So, they will have to wait for God to call them. Now we can take a step back from this literal definition of freewill for a second. Still impossible but more to think about. Let's say someone wants to play in the NBA. I mean this person really wants to. He practices, stays in shape to the best of his (sorry, it's got to be a male) ability. The only problem is, he is only 5 foot 4, is genetically uncoordinated and he sweats so badly that he can't hold onto a basketball. That person doesn't even have the lesser and non literal free will. Why do you think that the churches have invented the term limited free will? Because people want to believe their foolishness and would accept square circles if they were described to them. Sorry, but free will or free choice in any form are impossible and guess what, it's also not scriptural.

AKA Winston 22 months ago

(If I had a free will, my nose would not itch to begin with.)

Hell NO,

That is one of the stranger offerings I have run across. What has free will to do with chemistry and reactions? TinCobra was right - your idea of free will is magical omnipotence.

Free will is the choice of possible actions, not a wish for impossible desires. Choice, by its nature of preceding, delays action and so the completion of the action must occur after the choice, i.e., in the future (even if only imperceptibly). If it is a future event, then it falls into the category of future determinsim that I've already debunked. In a logic, what this means is that the "P" proposition is contingent upon the completion of the action as decided, and thus it can never be such that it is totally impossible that "not-Q."

The reason it can never be totally impossible is chance.

Your idea is simply fatalism or determinism, whichever term you like better to use. It's also known in religion as predestination.

(The misunderstanding and misapplication of the term free will does not weaken my argument that there is no such thing. There isn't and there never was.)

You are not arguing; you are asserting. All you have done is make an assertion that what you believe to be right is right - that kind of faith-based absolutist assertion is no different than the Christian absolutist claiming God's truth in quoted scriptures.

Of course, we have a choice - we don't have to believe your proclamation of truth.

TinCobra 22 months ago

Ya I like how you assume not everyone would want to be the same thing because that defies your philosophy, sorry bud I think your the one who fails to see round circles. A world where everyone gets what they want doesn't work.

Hell N0 22 months ago

Neither does your stupid unscientific free will.

TinCobra 22 months ago

unscientific lol science doesn't prove anything, only suggest

AKA Winston 22 months ago

(Neither does your stupid unscientific free will.)

Hell NO,

Now it comes clear that we are dealing with an absolutist who proclaims his own religious views of the Gods Cause and Effect.

You can always tell these religious nuts. They don't argue, they preach. They don't explain, they assert. And when you don't accept their religion, they call you stupid.

Hell N0 22 months ago

AKA, free will has nothing to do with chemical reactions. In fact, it has nothing to do with anything because it doesn't exist. Sorry in all of your wordiness you can't wrap your mind around this. And by the way, even if we are the result of random chemical reactions evolving by chance into higher levels of existence,,,,,

We still don't have a free will. Your definition is incorrect and isn't even close to how the church defines it. And I only care about that one because they use it to teach the most ungodly crap ever. Free will doesn't actually have anything to do with determinism. Check what some of the science websites have to say about it.

TinCobra 22 months ago

Hell I hope that you don't base every single aspect of who you are, off what other people think. I keep hearing about science, but science is only knowledge. Scientist's interpret that knowledge and very rarely do they all agree. So who is right? Sometimes thier claim is logic and rational, and sometimes it isn't. What it all comes down to, is what we choose to believe. Who should lift a man up above other's because he was taught a supposed higher education, by other's of higher education and so on and so on, until it gets back to the first guy who either made the stuff up, or that was his/her view on the knowledge they had at hand. So if it's possible for a man to either make up his own philosphy or obtain a philosphy based off his reasearch, isn't it also possible for each man to do the same? Why is it that we have to follow the educated elitist?

TinCobra 22 months ago

You are right pink I love science for the very fact you state, but science is not claiming anything, it's scientist who make the claims, and my point is they are just the same as any man. They are not free from thier own opinions and views getting in the way. Like I said sometimes they are right sometimes they are wrong and sometimes we won't know. Just because they have an education doesn't mean they are all knowing is my point.

TinCobra 22 months ago

Pink I hoped that people would understand me by now, but they keep looking at what I'm currently saying and forget what I have said, thus taking my comments out of the context of who I am. I've said what I believe (Bible) is based of faith, yes there is some intelectual evidence. Here is maybe something you might entertain, How is it that we say we've never seen God, when we don't know what God looks like? To say you've never seen God is saying that in your mind you have a view of what God looks like and thus you have never seen that image. My faith (bible) claims God as taken on many forms.

AKA Winston 22 months ago

(AKA, free will has nothing to do with chemical reactions. In fact, it has nothing to do with anything because it doesn't exist)

Hello NO,

This is the first rational statement you have made. Of course free will does not exist - free will is conceptual, and thus is part of the realm of logic.

Exist, to be used scientifically, means that which has shape (an object) and a location. The reason the definition of exist is so tight is to relieve ambiguity.

However, your conclusion is invalid and illogical, though, as science (rational explantions) has nothing to do with logic (axiomatic proofs). Science cannot prove or disprove free will; only logical argument can do that.

Free will is a logical argument only. It can only be proven or disproven within the boundaries of a logical argument. I have shown why any argument against free will fails.

(AKA, free will has nothing to do with chemical reactions.)

Listen, I don't mean to be rude or insulting, but seriously, are you dense? I never came close to saying free will had anything to do with chemistry - you did when you said free will, if it existed, could stop an itch. How could free will interfere with the chemistry that makes your nose itch without being a magical, omnipotent power?

Seeing it is you who has made the claim, how about defining free will in an umambiguous manner that will support your claims?

AKA Winston 22 months ago

Pink and TinCobra,

If you enjoy science and thoughts on science, I urge you guys to read some hubs by Fatfist and also Billgaede. Lots of interesting thought on both.

TinCobra 22 months ago

I don't know actually lol. I thought I understood your comment, but maybe not. Thought you were reffering to Christians thinking they were right and finding out they were wrong. Then you made a comment about scientific theory being scientifically disproven because it's not invisible. I assumed you were saying that because God is invisible, that is why I asked the question.... But I'd prefer to be your friend, rather then keep going back and forth in which you only become irritated with me and close your heart to a friendship. So please let me know, I've said plenty allready, if it's time to shut my big mouth then so be it.

Hell N0 22 months ago

Now that's a laugh Winston. Free will is as logical as a Sumo wrestler drinking a diet soda. And you're the one that asked what I think about chemical reactions and free will. And no, scientists don't agree on everything. In fact I think Dawkins mentioned that he believes in free will "of a sort". There we go again. But then, he thinks that the DNA molecule put itself together through random mutations.

AKA Winston 22 months ago

(But then, he thinks that the DNA molecule put itself together through random mutations)

Hell No,

Aha! Your stripes just showed though. You are at the wrong hub - Creationists like yourself gather next door.

The good news is that I can ignore you and your remarks, now, as you are doing quite a nice job of making yourself out to be a boob so there is no need to further refute your irrational, illogical religious claims of faith.

TinCobra 22 months ago

Gotcha Pink. So we are in agreement then, man has misinterpreted.. I want to say everything... but then I would be making a statement that I don't totally know to be true lol, so I'll say pretty much everything. :P

You are correct it is hard to give emotion to text at times. I keep thinking is she bi-polar, she seems nice to me one sec and angry the next, maybe it's me who's bi-polar lol.

TinCobra 22 months ago

Hey AKA that's not fair I was here first :P

TinCobra 22 months ago

Btw AKA I love your picture, he played a great part in that movie, a shame he's gone. I especialy like the spoof on you tube though, the interigation scene. I about died laughing the first time I seen it.

Hell N0 22 months ago

Sure Winston. I remember stating that religion has nothing to do with what I'm saying. But at least I use clear English while you use convoluted crap.

TinCobra 22 months ago

point taken :P

TinCobra 22 months ago

LoL just kidding with ya. Ya I love to debate, but then it comes to the point where I have made my case and the constant friction only grows heavier on my heart. I'm thankful that you have let me express my view and I appreciate that, because we all know on this hub your in control lol. I'm headed off to bed now, and to keep anyone from being seduced :P I won't recite last nights comment. Sleep well all, I'm sure I'll chat with ya tomorow.

TinCobra 22 months ago

lol no doesn't mean you are... only that you have the option to be :P Hey atleast you remembered my comment this time lol

weekend in bristol 22 months ago

I did find your comment about Pentecostal's very interesting, because I thought I was reading my own story. The first Church I ever attended was a Pentecost Church. Thanks for sharing this post with us.

culturespain 22 months ago

I think the Bible lacked a good editor! Of course, there are going to be contradictions, as the Bible is a collection of 'books' put together by various synods in (from memory) the 4th Century. As to believing every word - that is absurd when (if you are a believer) you should be 'taking home' the overall message of the Bible as a whole. A good example would be the lunacy of believing in the Bible's Creationism stories. Great tales, from which something positive can be drawn (no doubt) but factually rubbish.

zxc 22 months ago

what is this

edwardstips 22 months ago

Confess your sin and repent and forgive all those who sins against you thru our Lord Jesus Christ. and accept him as the begotten son of God and your Savior! Then Spread the good news to all humanity. Jesus Christ Loves Us and He always be!

AKA Winston 22 months ago

(Why when that is said do some get so angry? ...that does not mean that there isnt a god)

Pink Umbrella

Having been raised and subjected to the equivalent of religious abuse in a fundamental evangelical home, I can add something to your understanding here.

The reason so many fight so hard is that ANY God won't do, it has to be THEIR interactive God who created the world, died for sins, yada, yada, yadi. More liberal groups like Catholics and Episcapalians don't have such severe restrictions and would most likely agree with you. In fact, the Catholics have said there is no conflict between religion and evolutionary theory.

Of course, to the hard-core evangelicals, Catholics aren't real Christians (fancy that, the first and oldest group of Christians are the real ones).

But for the inerrantists (those who believe the Bible as infallible word of God), i.e., morons, it is not enough to have a non-personal God who creates and then steps out of the picture. No, no, no! Their God is actively involved in day-to-day living of the believers, from faith healing to daily salvations to casting out demons.

(sell crazy someplace else...were all stocked up here.........)

As Good as It Gets - terrific movie.

penningl 22 months ago

Great hub, thoroughly enjoyed reading and am looking forward to reading more of your hubs. Keep up the good work.

AKA Winston 22 months ago

(...not one of the original apostles wrote a single word about Jesus and what he said or thought but these guys did.)

Completely true. Also, the names Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are all ficticious - no one knows the true authors. The only surviving copies are written in Greek, not the Aramic that the disciples spoke. Plus, at that time, only about 10% of the population was literate, and the disciples were fisherman, most likely unable to read or write. Any early stories were passed along orally, as legend.

([Jesus] was a jew who followed jewish who followed jewish doctrine. He had no interest in starting a new religion. The Romans did.)

Again, 100 points for accuracy. Jesus preached to Jews about Judaism and had no interest in gentiles. There were many, many variations of early Christianity, all competing for converts along with the religion of Mithraism.

With the help of the Roman Emperor Constantine, Orthodox Christianity won out and the other writings that varied from Orthodoxy vanished or were destroyed, while new versions of Orthodox scriptures were added and existing texts altered to make it appear more likely that Jesus was the Messiah.

The book of Mark, for example, originally ended with Chapter 16:8 - the rest was added, most likely in the 2nd century.

zzron 22 months ago

My thought has always been that if God was not real and did not create everything, the earth, the sun, the stars and planets, all of the animals and plant life and people, then how did we all get here on earth in outer space ? We all had nothing to do with how we got here and our parents had nothing to do with how they got here and so on. People talk about this BIG BANG but how could there be a big bang without first something being created to cause a big bang ?

My second thought on heaven and hell if they exist or not has always been that it seems better to believe its true and real and find out later that it wasn't real than not to believe they are real or exist and find out later when its to late that they are real and do exist. Its true that we all will be dead much longer than we will have ever been alive and forever is a very long time. But I do think the Bible has to be studied a lot to understand it and there may be parts of it that we may never understand not because we are too stupid but because some of it is above our comprehension.

rescueachild 22 months ago

First off, you are rude and mean! No wonder you can't understand the true meanings of the Bible which is "inspired by God," I am actually A Christian who can care less if you believe or not, because your attack on us is evident.

Dense People obviously just can't understand I have figured out over the years, and always argue every little sentence in the Bible. God gives true knowledge and understanding of the Bible with the spirit.

I am not going to even bother to give you my testomony because you just want to bash Christians for what they believe, and make fun of their faith. This is why you built this hub.

Good job! I hope you feel so proud! You accomplished your mission but remember this: Regardless of whether YOU believe it or not, doesn't make it NOT true.

Jesus said it is our faith in Him that saves us. Not your permission to believe in our faith:)

Now your little Christian bashing game is over.

FYI:::Yes, I am a Christian and I feel NO guilt for outing you! I don't like people to exploit my family. Cheers!

rescueachild 22 months ago

Exactly my point, mean and rude!

rescueachild 22 months ago

Cow? WOW..... you are dense.

I am tired of Christian bashers like yourself who try and find reasons to call us names because of our beliefs. Yes, congrats on your hub because it is front page news now, and that is how I found you. Now everyone will know I do NOT put up with people Christian bashers!

I am sick of reading crap from people who like you who bait Christians into a discussion to bash them. I'm sorry your family has issues but that does NOT give YOU the right to bash us Christians. Nobody is perfect, but you seem to think that we are supposed to just stand around and take it like so many others.

I read your comments toward my fellow Christian brothers and sisters, and you are RUDE, MEAN, & make no sense at all. I am not trying to convert you and I am ALSO EXPRESSING MY OPINION! I am so sick of people like you who try and make us look bad because YOU had a bad experience. That's not our fault so stop taking it out on us. The whole country is against Christians now because of the sins of the Catholic church! That's not our fault either. Get over yourself and bashing Christians when they try to EXPRESS their opinions. IT is a two way street!

AKA Winston 22 months ago

(AKA- and you didnt share this earlier because....?)

Pink, darling, it was your hub. I have my own hubs where I cover such things. Like I said, I do not like to promote my own hubs in others' comments.

AKA Winston 22 months ago

(Jesus said it is our faith in Him that saves us)

Rescueachild,

As Dan Akroyd once said on Saturday Night Live, "Jane, you ignorant slut!"

You don't have the first CLUE what Jesus said about ANYTHING, because all you have left of your precious NEW TESTAMENT are copies of copies of copies, written in Greek, of lost writing of unknown authors who in all likelihood were ILLITERATE FISHERMEN, whose native language was NOT GREEK BUT ARAMIC.

They could have told you about how to catch Mackeral, but they couldn't have written down directions to the bait shop, much less taken dictation from Jesus.

In fact, for all you know, Jesus may have said, "Believe in me I've got swampland in Galilee to talk to you about." Then he mumbled "idiotic Gentiles," under his breath.

If you want to bash, bash with honesty that you really have no clue what anyone said 2000 years ago - there weren't any tape recorders around and the stenographers were busy in Egypt and Kelly Girl was still an ovary.

AKA Winston 22 months ago

Pink Umbrella,

Sorry, but that kind of paranoid, bible-thumping attack was uncalled for. It simply illustrates what I had to say in one of my hubs that: love is a decision and an action.

Attacking someone like that is an action - but it AIN'T based on LOVE.

The thumpers like to quote their authority and feel all squishy inside about their God.

You, on the other hand, I would bet show more real love in a day than most Thumpers manage in a lifetime.

I really liked your hub and your thinking - and not a single one of us is special. We are all fuck ups. Humans. There is no need for salavation from self - what do you say, Father forgive me, because I'm a fuck up? If you made me, then you made a fuck up. What the hell did YOU expect me to do?

Does a scorpion ask forgiveness for stinging his prey?

Keep up the humanity, Pink. That's where real salavation lies. Good job.

Btw, I decided a few years ago to stop ignoring the Christian Fundamentalist, not be nice to them, and call them out on their ignorance when they tried to form into a political force.

They can handle snakes in their basement; when they bring the snakes onto the place it's time to call Samuel L. Jackson to kick some Fundie ass!

"And you will KNOW that I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee!"

rescueachild 22 months ago

First of all Winston ~ f*** off ~ I wasn't talking to you! Slut? Is that really what you have to say? What a loser!

Pink Umbrella, I said what I had to say on your other hub. I can care less what anyone else believes and I just felt you were attacking Christians. I aplogise for my overreaction it's been a hard week.

Peace!

AKA Winston 22 months ago

Rescueachild,

YOU ARE THE VICTIM???? LMFAO!!!!!

You said,

(First off, you are rude and mean!)

Start with an insult. I guess your reading of the Bible kept you away from How to Win Friends and Influence People.

You follow by calling her stupid

(No wonder you can't understand the true meanings of the Bible)

You make a bald-ass unproven assertion, just like saying Santa is real, and I bet you had your lower lip stuck out:

(which is "inspired by God,")

You show your true colors of hate and bigotry

(I am actually A Christian who can care less if you believe or not,)

And then your schizoprenic paranoia

(because your attack on us is evident.)

Then you return to odious insults:

(Dense People obviously just can't understand)

Claims of false God-inspired enlightenment:

(I have figured out over the years, and always argue every little sentence in the Bible. God gives true knowledge and understanding of the Bible with the spirit.)

MORE INSULTS:

(I am not going to even bother to give you my testomony)

and a paranoid, false conclusion

(because you just want to bash Christians for what they believe, and make fun of their faith. This is why you built this hub.)

And then some good, Christian sarcasm just like Jesus taught you to do:

(Good job! I hope you feel so proud! You accomplished your mission but remember this: Regardless of whether YOU believe it or not, doesn't make it NOT true.)

And then you finish on a high note of paranoid schizophrenic hate:

(Now your little Christian bashing game is over.)

AND THEN YOU HAVE THE GALL TO SAY, OH, GEE, SORRY, I HAD A BAD WEEK!!!!

You're just a typical fundie, full of bitterness and hate because cognitive dissonance has caused you to ignore all rational thought and exist in a world of make believe - and therein lies the definition of psychosis, one who cannot differentiate real from the imaginary.

You are as unstable as an IED - don't blow yourself up in a crowd, please, trying to prove the Christian heaven exists as the Bible proclaims.

rescueachild 22 months ago

Look Loserfreak I settled my differences with Whom I WAS talking too. I wasn't talking to YOU! You are such a LOSER for keeping it going! MYOB!!!!!! You want to call people sluts???? Whatever! I can care less. I admitted I was wrong so go F*** yourself! Sounds to me like you your just spouting off to get attention because this now has NOTHING to do with what WE were talking about. Please.... SAVE IT!

rescueachild 22 months ago

PEACE

zzron 22 months ago

I'm glad you like me Pink, you are so sweet and I like you to. I guess we can agree to disagree :)

AKA Winston 22 months ago

Yeah, Pink-er-roo, don'tcha know nuthin'? What are ya, a fundie moron or something? :-))

Learn this and prosper, chick-a-doo:

The Bible is metaphor when it is convenient to be labeled metaphor, like that crazy story about living for 3 days in the belly of a "great fish". (Nobody really believes that crap, not even the Adventists - and they believe everything!)

The Bible is Lewis Carrol's Queen of Hearts when it is convenient for "a word to mean exactly what I want it to mean when I use it, and not a single thing more!" Adam only died in s-p-i-r-i-t, see? The Bible is also a Richard Pryor impersonator: "Adam wasn't really dying, dying, he was just k-i-n-d of dying."

The Bible is also a rerun of Law and Order and Perry Mason, when it is convenient to comment on the Mystery of the Missing Son. "So, Mr. Israel, you DO have a second son who resides in the second city this second? And that's why you murdered the first?"

And lastly, the Bible is symbollic - because I say so.

Hope this cures your ignorance! :-)) As Mr T. always said, Pity the fool!

Olde Thyme Religiosity 22 months ago

Well, The Pink Umbrella, thanks for getting the whole thing set straight. Bible written by (mostly) men, stories not really worth much to most of the world since there are many more non-christians than there are christians, and even among the christians there are deep divisions.

Maybe they're terrorists who want to indoctrinate us to follow blindly the paths to self-destruction. Oh,no, wait ... that's what al Qaeda does, isn't it? Convert or die? It CAN'T be TRUE that fundamentalist christians are anything like al qaeda, could it?

TELL ME IT AIN'T SO, JOE!

The day when the majority of humanity wakes up and discovers that all this religiosity is just a way to control their minds, actions and bank accounts, we will have take one giant leap into becoming a better species.

klran26 21 months ago

sorry if you got angry when you have read my comment. What I'm trying to say that all people need companion books when they read bible. It applied for all people, whether they are Christian, new Christian, non Christian, and even priest or Theology students.

We should using dictionary, encyclopedia and some other companion books. These books usually provide solid and valid informations. A bridge between our today world and the Bible's world, including cultural study, language study, additional informations and etc. So, you can understand what Bible had said in the contextual manner.

What I said about the lacking of knowledge was because your title. I expected some fact, strong opinions and etc. But, I didn't find it on this article.

AKA Winston 21 months ago

(A bridge between our today world and the Bible's world, including cultural study, language study, additional informations and etc. So, you can understand what Bible had said in the contextual manner.)

What KIran said here is certainly true, the historical-critical method of studying the Bible is used in theology schools worldwide. Most of us read in a "verticle" fashion, i.e., we start at the top left of the first page and read from there until finished. But to study contradictions in the Bible, a "horizontal" method is best employed, i.e., read a common story from two books side-by-side and compare details. For example, the passion. For historical accuracy, on what day and at what time did Jesus die? (And here is where KIran's advice is right, in that to know the day and times one has to know the customs of Jerusalem Jews at that time, because the dating method revolves around the Passover Day of Preparation and the Day of Passover itself.)

The books of Mark and John disagree. In Mark, Jesus dies on the morning of Passover day. In John, Jesus dies on the afternoon of the Day of Preparation - the day BEFORE Passover.

Why the differences? Different writers with different motives.

John, the last of the Gospels to be written, favored a version of Christianity that promoted Jesus as "the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." Indeed, the Gospel of John is the only one that indicates this sacrificial lamb aspect of Jesus.

The Passover lambs were slaughtered on the Day of Preparation, therefore John has Jesus (the lamb of God) die on the Day of Preparation, while Mark, written much closer to the actual date of death and with no theological ax to grind, has Jesus die on Passover day.

It certainly appears as if the writer of John made a change in the dating to support a theological viewpoint that was not shared by the writer of Mark.

And NOW you know the REST of the story.

anonymous 21 months ago

lol i can't believe the pink umbrella girl has been on this for over a week.....chill out

nobody cares

let people believe what they want.

I tell you I'm an atheist, and your gonna rant on about why your right and I'm wrong.

just CHILL.

AKA Winston 21 months ago

BROTHERYOCHANAN,

They are playing your theme song:

"Women seem wicked when you're unwanted

Streets are uneven when you're down

When you're strange

Faces come out of the rain

When you're strange

No one remembers your name

When you're strange

When you're strange

When you're strange"

What was your name again???

epigramman 21 months ago

...I am so very very proud of you - that was the longest scroll down to the bottom of the screen - of all time!

I had to put it on auto-scroll and make my breakfast and then I came back - it was still scrolling - happily I might add - and purring too!

And it took so long - that Jesus made a comeback on Larry King Live ..... well that just goes to show you - there are two topics which get people all wound up and invite comments galore - politics and religion.

And there's another kind of religion which gets me all wound up: you

Your hubs amaze me with their breath and variety of subject material - you always make your readers think and feel and come alive with passion and strong opinion.

I saw another film last night by the way - the documentary with Bill Maher called Religulous - which is about 'doubting the Bible'

...but one thing for sure I never doubt you!

You're the cream in my morning coffee ....

epigramman 21 months ago

..how poetic you are - is your face still red - lol lol

a gay and a christian enjoying cake, having their heart broken and stubbing their toe - absolutely fooking brilliant on your behalf - and as I always say - the beauty in people is in their differences - and how we should learn from one another and share in them.

SimpleSam 20 months ago

Any christians - please let me know - what did the lions eat for the 40 days on the ark? Bear in mind their teeth, the heat, the lack of refigeration and the fact that the animals on the ark were there to be protected.

aaron 11 months ago

i can point out every detail why i was trained as a historian . first no religion wrote myths in symbolgy what was written was truth nothing hidden. second i seen contradictions itself. i seen gay being slander in old testment and then jesus proclaim gays to good i have not seen it as sin an abomation does not mean sin and ambomation is a english term not hebrew term. so gays and transsexuals are alright and so arnt pagans no where it says go out and convert no where does it say against pagans. the bible conveintlly made out of 50 versions of christ teachings this in it self would create romans reason to be rome for the church. i can prove and show you but you go and say i am an idiot and the bible is perfact . it pisses me off to see fundies use the old testment when christ said old testment no more on gays but completly contradict sex before and outside of marriage equal to your gay sin but these christen do it and see nothing wrong but preach about the these sins. and no were does it talk about hell dante invented it. convientlly the church updates the bible when it is proven wrong to prove it and homosexuality isnt either. i am sick of christens lies you marriage law is illegal pagans say it violates their religous beliefs.